14 Million Copies, 7 Years, and No Publisher: What Dungeon Crawler Carl’s Success Teaches Every Indie Author

Ferol Vernon (00:10.914)

Hello, authors, and welcome to the Written Word Media Podcast. I am Ferol here with Ricci. and Ricci, as we’re recording this, we are freshly into September and starting to plan sort of a busy fall travel schedule for Written Word Media.

Ricci (00:28.213)

Yeah, absolutely. We’re looking at the back end of the year. It always goes so quickly. but it’s also big conference season for authors and those of us who serve authors. So we got NINC coming up towards the end of September and then also Author Nation. I’ve been to NINC a bunch of times. It’s a really fun conference because it’s right there on the beach. I went on the beach, like quite literally. So it’s very cool. You kind of feel like you’re on vacation, but you’re also doing work at the same time and

Ferol Vernon (00:50.024)

On the beach, yeah.

Ricci (00:58.397)

it’s nice informal atmosphere to chat and hang out with authors and some of the other industry people. I won’t be going this year, but we do have a couple of team members who will be. and then in November we have Author Nation, which is the big one, which I actually have never attended and will be attending this year. So I’m pretty excited about that. A couple of days in Vegas there.

Ferol Vernon (01:21.279)

Yeah. Yeah, it’s exciting. So Ricci and I will both be at Author Nation in early November for a few days. So we’re excited. You know, if anybody’s listening, please feel free. We’ll have a booth all week. Stop by, say hi. We’d love to love to chat to you if you’re if you’re around and at that conference.

Ricci (01:38.976)

we love seeing authors, so please come by, please come and say hi if you’re gonna be in Vegas or at Nink as well.

Ferol Vernon (01:52.352)

Amazing. Okay, so today though, today’s episode is not about conferences, although that’s an interesting idea for another episode. But today’s episode is something a little different. And so what we wanted to do today is pick an author and really deeply unpack what they did to be successful. And our focus is usually on indie authors and indie publishers. This is no exception, although that changes, spoiler alert.

but the author that we are talking about today has sold over 14 million copies, right? And every time a book in this series drops, it hits all the bestseller lists. They have gotten a live-action TV series signed from Seth McFarlane, Seth McFarlane, who created Family Guy, and they have famous showrunners attached to it. And it has been a just over likewhelming success.

And I am, of course, talking about Matt Dinneman, who has written the Dungeon Crawler Carl series. And today we’re going to be talking in detail about his indie start and what he did to be successful. And Ricci, I’m super excited because this is a little bit of a new format for us, but it’s also a little bit of a, you know, we’re both a little bit fans of the actual author. And so it’s fun to sort of do a deep dive here.

Ricci (03:13.022)

Yeah, I’m excited on a couple of fronts. One, I think we’re gonna have more and more of these case studies where we have indie authors who really make it big because they’re so great at writing incredible stories and building worlds and then get picked up into the mainstream. and then two, yeah, because I I’ve read Matt’s books and Ferol you have as well, even though I was late to the game.

and they’re they’re super cool. So for those of you who are unfamiliar with Dungeon Crawler Carl and Matt’s series, it’s actually litRPG, which is not a genre that I read. I skew much more towards literary fiction, women’s fiction, you know, mystery romance. I don’t know if I’d ever read a litRPG book. I guess Ready Player One counts as lit RPG. So that’s the other bestseller in the category-ish. This is pretty different from that. So

Ferol Vernon (03:38.789)

Ha ha.

Ferol Vernon (03:50.568)

Yeah.

Ferol Vernon (04:02.492)

Kind of, yeah.

Ricci (04:08.234)

it’s a litRPG book that is literally hitting the Amazon and New York Times bestsellers, which in and of itself is pretty phenomenal and unusual. but there’s a whole backstory as to why that’s happening, and we’re gonna unpack that here today and talk about Matt’s story and what other authors and publishers can learn from his journey.

Ferol Vernon (04:31.462)

Yeah. And I think before we get into the details, the the book is sort of, you know, sci-fi fantasy litRPG. And but like the lessons I think are for everybody. So regardless of what you’re writing, I think it’s an interesting story and an interesting case study on how you can break out, do things, some things traditionally, some things very non-traditionally, and how that can be a success starting as an indie. So let’s let’s back up and start at the beginning a little bit and start about, you know.

Who is Matt Dinneman and how did he get started? And, you know, the crazy thing is that this is you know, an artist, a creator, somebody who’s been doing creative things since, you know, his whole life. He’s written short stories, fan fiction, he’s done all kinds of cool things, but always in the creative industry. and so, you know, his his march towards writing this bestseller book really didn’t start with him sitting down and saying, I’m gonna write a bestseller book. It just started with him creating.

Ricci (05:56.58)

Yeah, so so Matt got his start actually being more of an artist and i illustrator. So he I think used to draw pictures of cats and dogs. He’s a huge cat person, has cats himself. and he used to go and shell sell these at arts and craft stores. he had an Etsy he had an Etsy store that was that was super successful.

Ferol Vernon (06:16.611)

Yeah, very successful Etsy store.

Ricci (06:21.517)

and at the same time that he was also drawing, he was writing novels, but he was kind of shelving them. He wasn’t actually publishing it or put that putting them out there. And I think he said that back in t 2009, he actually had an early version of Dungeon Crawler Carl. And Stephen King released his book Under the Dome, and he thought that the plot lines were a little bit too similar, so he didn’t do anything with it. so that’s like back in 2009, fast forward to like

twenty fifteen he starts discovering this whole subgenre of litRPG and getting really interested in that. And then in twenty nineteen he pulls out Dungeon Crawler Carl and and starts writing that again.

Ferol Vernon (07:07.458)

Yeah. And I think, you know, this is very much a little bit of a pandemic story, right? So he starts, he sort of picks Dungeon Crawler Carl back up, December 2019-ish. and then the world shuts down a few months later, right? And, you know, the thing is, I think stress or necessity is often a really good motivator to create really interesting art. And so he’s forced to sort of focus on his writing.

Because a lot of these art shows and things that he would go to in person are no longer happening. And I think, you know, so, so sort of taking an interesting, and I’m sure that wasn’t an easy time for him, but like during the COVID 19 lockdowns, you know, he is running this sort of little mini business, whether he knows it yet or not, of writing Dungeon Crawler Carl. And I think, you know, the first time he posts is on Royal Road, which is actually a web serial platform.

Which I think is a really interesting way to start. A lot of the authors listening here publish for their first time on Amazon using KDP or or something similar, but this was sort of an interesting way to start that.

Ricci (08:17.581)

Yeah, so he starts posting on Royal Road, he starts writing the book, and then he actually finishes it and publishes publishes it as a full scale novel on Amazon in October of 2020. And so that’s seven years ago, you know, almost to the day we’re sitting here in September. So just want to point out that like he he wrote and published this book seven years ago. He’s a bestseller author today, and that’s really happened in the last six months or so.

So did take seven years from publication of book one to him being, you know, all over the place today. So just something to remember as we work through his journey and think about some of the lessons here for everybody else.

Ferol Vernon (09:01.344)

Yeah. And the other thing that he did is he really focused on writing for audio. So you you can you can listen to some YouTube videos where he’s being interviewed and and he, you know, says that he did this that, like, you know, he always thought it would make a great audiobook. And he finds a great narrator, Jeff Hayes, that they kind of know through gamer culture, because Matt’s a big gamer, and I I guess this guy was too. And so they connect. And I think it’s one of those creative connections that really works out. Sometimes you just find a collaborator that really

you know, get to you and works with your stuff. And that’s when word of mouth sort of starts really taking off is that that audiobook. but you know, he’s still being somewhat successful, right? And I think it’s, you know, maybe 2022, 2023 when we kind of hear about Dungeon Crawler Carl. And, you know, I’ll just I’ll just relay this story for the audience. We had some friends over for Thanksgiving. And one of the things I always ask people is, What are you reading? And so, you know, our friend says, Hey

Dungeon Crawler Carl. And I’m like, I actually wrote it down. I wrote it down wrong. And I had to Google it. I was like, what is this? And then I finally figure it out. And I read it. I ripped through the first three books in no time. And I, you know, then our I followed up with our friend and I was like, my gosh, this is so cool. These books are amazing. And he was like, Yeah, I heard about it through my brother. And my brother has met Matt. And so in preparation for the episode, I wanted to give a shout out to Tyler Coyle, who I spoke with on the phone.

and so this is early twenty twenty three when our friend of a friend meets Matt and he goes to the trade show and Matt’s at a trade show signing books and there’s only two people at the thing. 

Ferol Vernon (10:53.811)

So Tyler goes to the trade show, he meets Matt Dinnerman. Matt tells him that, you know, he’s only had two people show up to his booth before. So while you know, we’re saying word of mouth is catching, the audiobook is doing well, still when he goes into person, there’s not a big audience. but I think what what I really want people to understand about the story is that Tyler has this connection with the author, with Matt. They go out for a drink. and Matt is a genuinely sort of nice person.

And gives his time to his fans. And you know, even when he doesn’t have a lot of fans, he made this sort of deep connection with one person. And that one person has recommended his book a ton of times. And when I spoke with that, I was hey, he said, I’m batting a thousand recommending this book, which means every time he recommends that book, somebody comes back to him and says, that was a great book. Thank you for recommending. And there’s a tremendous amount of social capital that you get from recommending a good book to someone. And so I think.

You know, that personal connection that he was able to make is a really, you know, something that really sets him apart. And when you’re writing indie fiction before you have a big audience, it’s something that people should take note of that, you know, a a very small handful of personal connections can make a huge difference to your career.

Ricci (12:09.105)

Yeah, and again, this is, you know, twenty twenty three, he’s at a conference or a convention and he has two people stop by his booth. When by all metrics, say on looking at Amazon sales, you would say, hey, he’s pretty successful. And Matt keeps doing this. I think if you speak to kind of anybody who’s met him at any of these conferences or conventions, the general consensus is, he’s such a nice guy. You know, he’s really friendly, he’s willing to talk to anybody. and so, you know, good karma begets good karma and

And for Matt, that was he was comfortable doing that. That’s not going to be true for every author, but the fact that he was willing to go and get these booths and sit there and say, Okay, only a couple of people showed up, but then he would do it again and again and again, because those connections that he was making, albeit small, were helping him with his brand and with his fan base.

Ferol Vernon (13:01.412)

Yeah. And and the crazy thing is that later that year, he actually signs a deal with Random House. Right. So like in the span of a year, he goes from like running into somebody at a booth and like not having a huge audience to signing a deal with the biggest publisher in the world. And you know, one of the really interesting things I think that he did is he started indie and you say, well, he he sold depending on Random House, but he actually just sold his print rights. So he still owns his ebook rights to the entire series.

And I thought that’s just a really cool world that we’re living in where indies have that power. They can keep more margin, keep more control on their ebook rights, but the print distribution rights, which are sometimes very difficult to coordinate, they’re able to sell and and and leverage a major publisher there. So, you know, technically I guess, you know, Matt is now a a hybrid, a hybrid author.

Ricci (13:50.819)

Right, exactly. Because he still does have his indie rights. I also think that is one of the areas where traditional publishers still have an advantage as an and an edge is in distribution. Like if you do want to get your books throughout the bookstores in the US and internationally, especially internationally in print, that’s where trad publishers can can really help. And so Matt was smart about it. He’s like, you know, his e books are selling like hotcakes. He’s making, you know, really high royalty rates. Why would he sell the rights to that?

Ferol Vernon (14:08.046)

Yeah.

Ricci (14:19.598)

So he just sold the right to print. I’m not sure exactly what he’s done with his audio rights, if he’s kept all of those, or if he’s he’s sold those. he’s being a smart business person looking at all his assets and formats and deciding where it makes sense to keep full control and where it makes sense to partner with other players in the industry.

Ferol Vernon (14:43.79)

Yeah. And I think, you know, something that’s just really cool is how like an author can do that. And and you know, something Matt says in one of his interviews, and there’s this this cool YouTube video where he’s on stage with like Brandon Sanderson and a bunch of other really famous authors. And, you know, he has this say this quote and he says, you know, there’s no way in a million years that a publisher would have signed Dungeon Crawler Carl, right? if I hadn’t self-published it.

And I think that’s so powerful because, you know, this is a book, and I mean this quite literally, that is about a talking cat and a guy in a game show about the end of the world. And I’m not spoiling anything. You you learn that very quickly in the book. But like that pitch wouldn’t go well. And he says that on stage. And I think it’s really interesting and it’s a really cool world to be in where those kinds of stories make it out to everybody because there’s a platform for it. And then once it gains some audience and it and it sort of hits culturally.

more doors open for for some of these other things that are going on for him. But I just thought that was a really cool moment of of really validating self publishing and indie publishing. you know, whereas ten years ago, if we were recording this pod, that would have been a very different story.

Ricci (16:04.812)

Yeah, absolutely. Because traditional publishers are looking for books that have mass appeal right from the get-go. And a little RPG book about, you know, a talking cat is probably not high on their list of things that are going to have mass appeal. And even if you look at our story, you know, Ferol, you and I in reading this book, you got the recommendation, you read the book, you loved it, you told me about it. I still didn’t pick it up, right? This was probably two years ago. And I was like, okay, sounds interesting, but I had other things on my

Ferol Vernon (16:29.525)

Right.

Ricci (16:34.209)

TBR list. Then about three months ago, when the book is hitting all the bestseller lists, I was like, okay, I need to read this. This is a cultural phenomenon now. I work in the book industry. Ferol said it’s a good book. So I picked it up and I read it and I did love it. But for me, a reader who’s not in that genre of litRPG where it’s outside of my comfort zone, it’s not enough for it to just be on a best-seller list within litRPG. It had to reach this kind of cultural critical mass that

Then caused me to pick it up off of the shelves, which is why you’re starting to see this surge and this momentum behind the sales themselves. And I think it’s a really interesting because for those of you who ever read Malcolm Gladwell’s book, The Tipping Point, Gladwell talks about how if you have enough word of mouth and enough spread of an idea or a thing.

At some point it reaches this tipping point and it kind of takes off into the stratosphere. And the truth is, is that the smaller the community that you’re trying to reach a tipping point within, the faster you can potentially reach that tipping point. Because a small, tight community is very dense. So everybody’s connected to everybody, everyone’s talking to everybody. So so the idea moves very fast. And then you hit that critical mass without a lot of

friction. So if you think about the analogy of like trying to convert an entire country to an idea or a product versus a village, inside, if you’re inside the village, you’re trying to saturate a village, that can take really quick. And that’s what what Matt kind of did within the LitRPG kind of gaming community. That was his community. So that was his village, right? And at the time they were it was small, it was hungry and it was underserved. There was not a lot of content coming out in litRPG.

Ferol Vernon (18:22.099)

Yeah.

Ricci (18:27.408)

So these readers were really looking for more content, and Matt came along and and they they reached that critical tipping point really quickly. Then the people within the village start going out to their connections beyond the village and start help to help you to get that tipping point within the country, right? So like Ferol, you’re in the village because you’re a litRPG reader, you tell me eventually I read it. So now you see that expansion of the tipping point. And so starting within these like really small communities.

Ferol Vernon (18:39.945)

Yeah.

Ricci (18:56.787)

can be a huge advantage or a leverage point when you’re trying to actually make it big.

Ferol Vernon (19:08.328)

Yeah, I I think something he said’s really I I love this village analogy and and like to take that a little bit further, I think there was two techniques that we should talk about that he has made an incredible use of, which is really, you know, using these services is not innovative because lots of people do this, but the way he did it was just really effective and successful. And that’s using Patreon and using Kickstarter. And so I’ll talk a little bit about about Kickstarter because you know, when I spoke with with Tyler, who’s the fan that met him.

he relayed this to me. And so one of the things that that Matt did is there’s this concept in books of a of a redshirt, right? When which is if you don’t know that term, it’s when a character shows up in a book and you kill them off relatively quickly. And so Matt was decided he was actually going to sort of do a Kickstarter auction off, so to speak, spots to name characters that both lived and died. So he charged $777 if he wanted to live.

And $666 if you wanted to die. And, you know, according to Tyler, like this the the the live slots sold out immediately, right? So that’s $777 for each character that gets to live. And then the kill slots, there were still a few left. So he bought one of those. And you know, so you know, your name gets put in the book that you’re following, and then your character dies. And like the thing that I think is so cool about that, one, there’s the financial component.

That’s interesting, right? It’s, you know, $600, $700. That’s hundreds of copies if you’re selling, you know, a book at two or three bucks. But what’s really more interesting is the story, right? Like the fact that now you have somebody and they get killed in that book, that is a story that they will tell at every dinner party, you know, for the rest of their life. And you know, it was a relatively cheap way for you.

To gain these super deep connections with fans. And I just thought that was a super interesting way. And you know, he uses Patreon to like sort of speak with his fans and give them early access and solicit feedback. And it’s just really cool. It’s almost like the sort of writing in public or building in public. and just he’s able to make these really deep connections, and to your point, just with the people in the village. But those connections are so deep that when they go out of the village, it brings in a much wider audience.

Ricci (21:30.158)

Yeah, I think Matt’s use of Patreon, Kickstarter was very smart. and a lot of authors try to do this, but I think sometimes as authors thinking about our business, we sometimes are thinking about like the business and raising the money more than we’re thinking about the fans in the community. And I think for Matt it was flipped, like he really connected with this community. He was bringing them along. So the community in many respects was his.

Ferol Vernon (21:51.256)

Yeah.

Ricci (21:57.857)

It was his community and it was kind of his collaborators. Like he would test out ideas with them, you know, he would drop chapters early. some of the ideas for characters in the books or some of the monsters in the books would come from his community itself. And so I think your community can tell that. Your community can tell when you like respect them and when you’re really interested and curious about what they think and when you’re getting a kick out of them enjoying the book as well.

and then that leads to these very creative ways in which to incorporate the community, but then also put some kind of revenue generating aspect behind it. Because at the end of the day, you know, Matt was trying to make money from his books. He’s trying to make a living like like everyone else. And so he needed a good way to pair those two things. Yeah. And he has succeeded there. so I think really a masterclass class in community building.

Ferol Vernon (22:40.3)

Yeah. And he succeeded there.

Ricci (22:53.454)

from Matt here and and how he was able to do that.

Ferol Vernon (22:58.412)

we’ve talked about this on other podcasts. you know, it’s not quite this example, but close to it is, you know, being a reader focused author is a really important thing today. Right. And so, you know, one of the things that, you know, Matt did, and I won’t spoil, but like there are key plot points in the series that he essentially had his fans come up with those ideas, or, you know, validate those ideas. And I think it’s one thing to, you know,

Name a throwaway character and kill them off. It’s another one to be like, hey, like that thing that we all talked about, like on a community, like the book’s kind of using that and going in that direction. And his ability to deal with that, I don’t know, sort of chaotic creative process, I think is just really incredible and you know, very unusual. But like his ability to do that makes people feel it’s like you were saying, like truly invested instead of like, you know, it’s not an authentic investment.

and I thought that when I was reading about it, I was like, that’s just so incredible that he was able to do that.

Ricci (24:02.582)

Yeah, I love that. superficially connected versus authentically connected are very different things. And the platforms out there like Kickstarter and Patreon allow you to do both. But as an author, it’s your job to try and go with the authentically connected route if you possibly can.

Ferol Vernon (24:25.312)

the other really cool thing is that like this whole story is around him validating this really niche story that he wanted to tell and it going really, really well. And you know, there was nobody out there that could tell him, don’t publish this or no, right? Because of services like Royal Road and even, you know, KDP, you can you can publish pretty much anything. And like that was awesome. And so, like, you know.

Yes, he did a lot of really innovative things in terms of his fan connection. I think he deserves a lot of credit for that. You know, but the services are out there. And I think that’s, you know, more generally, that’s just a really cool, cool world that we live in that where all that’s available.

Ricci (27:08.252)

Yes, so there are amazing services out there that authors can use today, right? To distribute and disminate your book in all these different ways. and with the advent of AI, making your work and getting it on these different platforms is actually becoming easier and cheaper. but in that world, being a human actually becomes more valuable, right? So if you think about Matt’s story, it’s all about his humanity.

He’s literally out there, like in 3D, IRL, at these conferences, meeting his fans. He’s sitting on, you know, Patreon and responding to people. I think he used to do not necessarily AMAs, but like he would have like people could like jump onto Zoom calls with him and see that he is, you know, a real person. and as you said, everyone says, Matt, he’s such a nice guy, right? Everybody’s kind of on his side. So

More and more in this world of AI, where we will have content that is created by AIs, we obviously have the challenges of AI slop. the one thing AI can’t do is sit down and have a beer with you, right? AI can’t have a conversation, AI can’t connect the same way at you can connect human to human. And I think at the crux of the success of the story is Matt.

Ferol Vernon (28:20.303)

Yeah.

Ricci (28:33.582)

And his humanity and the community that he built. And then what’s also really interesting is within this community that he built, he built a community of other humans who really cared about him, who was big fans of his work. And they became both his marketers through word of mouth, but they also became his business partners. I think I had read that the showrunner of the Peacock series was actually a Patreon subscriber.

Ferol Vernon (29:00.91)

Yeah.

Ricci (29:01.347)

before he even met Matt, right? But he was a pa he was on Patreon, he had heard Matt, he probably had seen Matt, and then he actually, I don’t know if he approached Matt or exactly how it went, but he discovered Matt that way. And so as all of us navigate this new world of AI, whether you’re excited or anxious, the one thing that we can all lean into is the fact that like we are flesh and blood human beings, and using that

Ferol Vernon (29:03.279)

Yeah, right.

Ricci (29:28.692)

as a huge leverage point and as an advantage as we’re building community and fandom and readership for our work.

Ferol Vernon (29:36.313)

Yeah, and I think if you read any of his stuff on Patreon, like he’s not, you can’t fake that. Like his he’s so authentic, it’s so him, it’s so real, and it’s so cool. And I think, you know, the peop people, his fans, and even just casual readers really respond to that. And I think it’s something that, you know, all of our authors you can you can learn from. You can’t be him exactly, right? But you can focus on interacting with your readers. And you know, deep connections are okay. It’s not all about eyeballs.

And so I think that’s something really important for people to take away from from the way he’s done all this.

Ricci (30:11.406)

Yeah. The other thing to remember here is the success takes time. I know we hit on that earlier, right? So like it’s been seven years since he published Dungeon Crawler Carl, but the truth is he was doing a lot of the groundwork way before that because he was in these creator communities and these gaming communities. And I’m a huge Swifty, so it reminds me a little bit of like there’s that Taylor Swift meme that, you know, was going around a little while ago. That’s a video of her like on some small stage.

Ferol Vernon (30:17.261)

Yeah.

Ferol Vernon (30:25.891)

Yeah.

Ricci (30:40.289)

At some festival where she’s playing to like a crowd of three people. and then, you know, there’s the quote underneath that says, It takes 20 years to make an overnight success, because everyone’s like, my gosh, she just, you know, rose out of nowhere. Well, no, she didn’t. She’d been playing for decades before she became the superstar she is today. and Matt’s story is somewhat similar. Like all the

reps that he’d been putting in, the relationships, going to the conferences, all of those things built the groundwork for him to then get this momentum to then take off into the stratosphere, but it did take time. He didn’t publish in 2020 and become a bestseller in 2020 or 2021. It’s taken literally seven years for him to be heading all of these bestseller lists. And so you know, the the myth of the overnight success, it always seems you hear about somebody and you’re like, they came from nowhere, but you know, that that’s not their not

Ferol Vernon (31:05.249)

Yeah.

Ferol Vernon (31:31.646)

It’s like no, worked really hard.

Ricci (31:33.475)

They were he worked really hard, that’s not their story, and something to to hang on to as you’re out there in the trenches, you know, building up your own fandoms.

Ferol Vernon (31:42.604)

Awesome. Cool. So I, you know, I think it’s that’s a good note to wrap up on. So just to like kind of summarize some of the things that we’ve talked talked about here, you know, I think authenticity has been a theme of the discussion today. You know, connection with your your readers, your fans, and not worrying about that being always broad. Broad obviously helps, but deep connection with very few people, the the village analogy is really, really important. And then I think.

You know, using these new services, the Kickstarters, the Patreons, Royal Road, all these things to develop your craft and connect with your fan base

Ricci (32:22.933)

Yeah, absolutely. And you know, you might listen to this and be like, this isn’t really for me. I don’t want to be out there conferences and talking to fans. and that’s okay because I think we’re we’ll do another deep dive into other best sellers, you know, indie two bestsellers that are out there with authors who’ve taken really different approaches. We have one up our up our sleeve, which we’ll we’ll probably record in the next couple of weeks. and so we just think it’s

really interesting to be sharing these stories of indie authors who’ve made it big and how they got there. and not every path is going to be the same. I think as we do this series, you’ll learn that like there’s a different path for every every author. but you can learn something from all of these authors who came before. And so hopefully this has been a little helpful and inspiring. I find the story really inspiring to talk about and and hopefully the same for you all listening.