The Author’s Guide to Hiring Freelancers (Cover Designers, Editors, and More) with Maari Casey

Ricci Wolman (00:01.431)

Hello everybody and welcome to the Written Word Media pod. Today I am very excited to be joined by Maari Casey, the founder and CEO of Uncompany. Uncompany is a hybrid between a creative agency and a creative staffing firm that connects clients with high level freelancers. And today Maari and I are going to talk about everything authors should know when working with freelancers. So Maari, welcome to the show.

Maari (00:30.658)

Yeah, thanks for having me.

Ricci Wolman (00:32.715)

It’s great to have you here. Let’s start by talking a little bit about your background and on company and why you’re the right person to talk to about how best to work with freelance talent.

Maari (00:44.268)

I’ve been, so my background is in advertising as a creative. I worked in advertising agencies for some time. And then relatively fairly early on in my career, had some life stuff happen that kind of made me have this transition into freelance where I like, really had to figure out a way that work worked better for me. And I could do work with amazing clients. And then I could also have my life stuff happening around me and take care of things. And so at that point,

about, oh my gosh, like 20 years ago, I transitioned out of like more traditional working into freelance and did that for about five years. And just in the process of doing that, I was like, this is amazing. Everybody should start their own business. Everybody should be self-employed. You get this opportunity to build what really works for you. And I loved it. And in that time, I spent so much time talking to individual freelancers and people who were building their business. And I just loved and found value in being able to help them.

And I really realized that there was all this massive pool of talent that really needed help and support on figuring out how to build a business, but also how to connect with clients. And at the same time, I also worked on the client side and realized clients knew of this pool and wanted to connect to the talent, but there was no system and process set in between. And so after about five years or so, I started Uncompany really to figure out what that in between look like and make it easy for individual business owners, freelancers to work with big businesses.

and for big businesses to work with individuals and make that process as frictionless as possible. And so a lot of what we’ve done with Uncompany is really just systems development and figuring out like, this is how it’s always been done, but why do we have to do that? Can we do this and make it a little easier? And so for the last 15 years or so, it’s really building systems and building processes just to make the freelance working process a lot simpler and a lot more streamlined.

Ricci Wolman (02:33.684)

Got it. So in essence, you’re a matchmaker between companies and freelancers looking for work. And then you’re also an optimizer. You’re making the processes and systems a lot more efficient for the freelancers and the companies that working together.

Maari (02:37.164)

Mm-hmm.

Maari (02:49.247)

Absolutely.

Ricci Wolman (02:49.493)

And I think, you know, freelancers and indie authors actually have a lot in common, right? Their goals are similar in that they are pursuing some kind of calling or creative pursuit if the freelancer happens to be in the creative realm. And then they also really value freedom and flexibility over their schedule, which is why they’ve chosen to do this versus taking a job at a big company or a small company, but, you know, actually going out on their own and being an entrepreneur as well.

With Uncompany, how many freelancers would you say you’ve worked with over the years?

Maari (03:24.96)

I mean, probably hundreds and thousands of different freelancers over the last 15 years, from all different places and all different levels and all different skill sets. We actually do have a lot of copywriters and writers within our business. And it’s fun because you realize everybody’s very different, but they all have similar core beliefs, which is usually freedom, flexibility, owning something. They all have this kind of ownableness that they, there’s something that they want to create.

And that’s something that they all share. doesn’t matter who they are or where they’re from. They all share that desire to own something. And then just to be able to like build, you know, build a business they want, but also build a life alongside of it that they can actually live in and enjoy. And so that’s something I think we really, we all share value in.

Ricci Wolman (04:10.62)

Yeah, that’s really awesome. So most of our authors, the way that they’re working with freelancers is either in the pre-publication phase, they’re looking for an editor or a coverage designer or a blurb writer or somebody to build their website. Or in the post-production phase, which is the book’s now up there and maybe they’re looking for a freelancer to help them with marketing or setting up a Shopify store or some of those types of things. So

Maari (04:12.332)

you

Maari (04:32.684)

Mm-hmm.

Ricci Wolman (04:39.22)

When an author is first getting started and they realize, I need a freelancer for my cover design or I need a freelancer to build a website. Where should they start? Let’s start with the basics. How should they even go about finding a freelancer who can do that work for them and do it well?

Maari (04:50.988)

Mm-hmm.

Maari (04:55.656)

Yeah, that’s hard because there’s so many places to look, right? It’s like everyone’s like, there’s 50 million freelancers working in the world. Like go find them. And they’re just everywhere. You’re like under looking under a rock. mean, I think the first thing you should do is I would really define what your project looks like. So have a really clear understanding of what you’re going to ask for. And then if you can apply some kind of a budget timeline, all those kind of things, the more you can get really, really focused in on what it is that you’re going to take to the freelancer upfront.

the less time you’ll spend finding the wrong people. Because if you have a specific budget, like that’s fine, you have a budget, that’s good. You’ll find certain people that will be able to do it and some people that maybe will be too high for that. So I would definitely have that in mind just to save you on time. And then I would start by talking to, if you’re local to the Triangle, there’s a ton of great creative communities here. There’s Uncompany, which we’re not local to Raleigh, but there’s definitely groups out there like us that will do a little bit more bespoke freelance matching.

Ricci Wolman (05:52.012)

Thank

Maari (05:52.461)

There’s obviously online communities like Upwork and Fiverr and various other ones. Those are a fine place to go, but just understand that you’re probably going to do a little bit more work having to source and go through those sites to find the right person. If you go to a larger site like Fiverr, Upwork, or any of the other ones, just make sure that you have that scope really, really locked in and have a really good understanding of what you’re looking for in a person and talent and communication because you might find somebody who’s like,

looks good and maybe they’re on the other side of the world and you don’t want to have to deal with time zones and that’s going to cause a breakdown. Or I think another thing that you can really do is have somebody else who is creative in your circle of friends who can help you vet people to make sure it’s the right person. I think part of finding the right freelancer is knowing what the right questions are to ask. And if you’re not coming from a creative world, then you’re not sure what questions to ask. So try to get an idea of if I’m looking for a book, a cover designer, I should see their portfolio. I should see examples of their work. I should know like

Ricci Wolman (06:33.059)

Mm-hmm. you

Maari (06:48.682)

what questions I need to ask when I go in to kind of give them a screening call. So that’s a good place to start.

Ricci Wolman (06:48.906)

Got it. Okay. So I’m going to dive back into, you touched on a bunch of different things. So let me first stop by saying there is one freelance collective similar to Upwork and Fiverr that is actually set up specifically for authors and that is called Readsie. So in our industry, a lot of authors will go and use Readsie and Readsie has freelancers specifically who are used to working with indie authors. So I would definitely recommend that as a place to go as well.

Maari (06:57.868)

Mm-hmm.

Maari (07:08.801)

Mm-hmm.

Maari (07:17.75)

cool.

Ricci Wolman (07:19.038)

But then you said, okay, make sure that you’re, you know, you’ve got your scope and the scope is tight. How do you know if your scope is good?

Maari (07:26.22)

That’s a good question. I would definitely bet it past some other people. Say, here’s what I’m looking to do. Look at this. And if you have creative connections or friends, even if it’s not somebody who you would hire to do this role, just give it to them and say, help me find the holes in this. I think what makes the scope not solid is if there’s vagueness in there. I want you to do a book cover. One book cover, whatever, front and back.

I think you need to figure out like, okay, I need this to be, I want to have three rounds of revisions. I want to be able to go in and make some edits on it. I would like this delivered in black and white and four color. I would like it to incorporate original illustration. I would also like to include like type settings of putting, putting together the title and all that kind of whatever it looks like. But I would be as specific as you want it to be. There’s no judgment. Sometimes we’re like, I don’t, want to keep my.

my scope and everything on one page, it’s fine. Like give more details. You can always hone it down a little bit, but make sure you’re really locked in on what exactly you want to walk away with. So I want to walk away with all the files. I want to walk away with, you know, the layered files. I want to make sure I own that artwork at the end of it, especially when you’re getting artwork created for you sometimes. You know, usually that usually that’ll come up in front, but make sure that you have ownership over all of that work at the end of the day. Just be really clear about what you’re looking for and especially include like

rounds of revision, how many reviews am gonna get, that kind of stuff.

Ricci Wolman (08:51.35)

Got it. So what I’m hearing you say is start at the end. Think about.

Maari (08:55.308)

Mm-hmm.

Ricci Wolman (08:55.708)

On the day that you actually get the thing that you want, what are you getting? Make sure that it’s really specific, that you’re saying, hey, I want to be, let’s just use your cover design. I’m looking for a cover design on these dimensions. It has to look good in print or in digital or both. I want the illustrations to be stock or I want them to be original. I want to make sure I own all of the art. And I know there’s going to be back and forth. So I want to bake in some rounds of revision.

Maari (09:18.613)

Yeah.

Ricci Wolman (09:23.592)

This is also, think where AI can be your friend. Like you can go into Plot or ChatGPT and say, Hey, here’s my brain dump of all the things I think I want help to put this into a scope of work for me, for a designer. Or if you’re doing copy editing, say, Hey, I have a book and it’s so many pages and I want to copy edit or I want to line edit and help you maybe flush out. Or you can even ask the AI, have the AI maybe ask you some questions, right? To figure out what the scope of the work might be.

Maari (09:26.293)

Mm-hmm. yeah.

Maari (09:52.342)

Yeah.

Ricci Wolman (09:53.092)

What about budgets? You mentioned have your scope and have your budget. Those are the starting points. How do you even know like where to start? Right? Is it literally just like what you’re willing to spend? Are you just like, have this much in my bank account that I’ve earmarked and you just throw that number out there. Are there places you can look for benchmarks or should you be negotiating? Should you say your budget’s lower than it actually is knowing that maybe there’s going to be a negotiation to come up? Like, how do you think about that?

Maari (10:01.004)

Yeah, I know, that’s a big question.

Maari (10:16.332)

Mm-hmm.

Maari (10:21.484)

Yeah, I think it’s a good question. And I think that there’s a couple of different ways to go about it. Definitely starting with what you have to spend and say, this is what I have to spend on the whole publication of everything and everything, maybe including my marketing budget. And then figure out, know, a lot of budgeting, I think, just comes down to priorities. It’s the same thing when you go grocery shopping, you’re like, I love cheese. I’m going to spend a lot of, 60 % of my grocery budget is going towards fancy cheeses. And I’m going to say like, I don’t care. I’m going to have, I can have boxed wine. It’s fine.

So I think it’s all about prioritizing where you want to live and what you want to spend most of your money on. So if having a really custom cover is super important to you and you think will help move the needle and getting visibility, then spend more money on that. If you’re not as concerned about that, because maybe this is the second edition or maybe you already have a readership that’s following you and you’re like, they’re going to buy it no matter what, then maybe put your money in another place.

Ricci Wolman (11:07.401)

Okay.

Maari (11:15.82)

and insert pictures or whatever. So I would say like sit down first and figure out what you want to prioritize and then definitely work budget backwards to figure out what that number is. And yes, I would absolutely bake in a little wiggle room for negotiation. So say your budget is $50 for a cover, picking a number, go in with sort of 35 and see where we feel and see if, leave a little space for revisions and things that pop up because they always do.

Ricci Wolman (11:41.753)

Got it okay that’s great advice that’s awesome okay so we did scope we did budget. You said revisions you mentioned three revisions is that what you would recommend for kind of a back and forth on the right now we’re talking about creative so on a cover design or any kind of creative sale web design you think three revisions is a good number.

Maari (11:51.019)

Mm-hmm.

Maari (11:57.269)

Yeah.

Maari (12:03.512)

That’s typical, it’s a say two to three revisions. That doesn’t mean you have to use it. I think sometimes people are like, I’m paying for three revisions, I’m going to keep pushing it back even though I’m comfortable with revision number one. I think it’s good to have that again to give a little flexibility and space in there. Usually two to three revisions is kind of standard.

Ricci Wolman (12:22.697)

Okay great and then what about if you doing like editing that doesn’t lend itself as well to revisions or does it how would that work.

Maari (12:27.179)

Mm-hmm.

Maari (12:32.396)

Um, I think editing is a little bit straighter. So you probably, maybe you have one clear pass of everything. It depends on if they’re going in and are they editing or are they also adjusting anything? Are they kind of tweaking for, you know, making comments on like, maybe you could change it here. If they’re just going in straight copy editing and proofreading, then it’s really just page by page review. And then the final copy doc. Um, I think it can be a little bit more like, it can be a little more streamlined. It could be like, usually my writers when they’re doing, we’re doing one right now.

It’s more time per page, so it’s almost like an hourly per page plus review time and meetings. And you can probably make that a little bit straighter.

Ricci Wolman (00:00.875)

Okay. Wonderful. And then let’s say you’ve narrowed, you’ve got your scope. We’ve got all your budget. You’re ready to go. And you’ve narrowed it down to two freelancers. You said, look at their portfolio or maybe look at their reviews.

Maari (00:02.149)

You

Maari (00:08.773)

You

Maari (00:25.829)

Mm-hmm.

Ricci Wolman (00:29.782)

What’s more important here? Also, what about, how do you kind of test the chemistry between the two of you? If you’re going to work well together? Yeah. How do you think about that process of actually narrowing down and choosing the right person?

Maari (00:38.328)

Mm-hmm.

Maari (00:45.485)

Yeah, a couple of different ways. think it’s always good to talk to them. If you can meet them in person, that’s awesome. But you’ll learn a lot by just conversation with people. I’ve just gotten a couple of interviews. I’m like, wow, you learn so much when you interview somebody about this is how it’s going to be. But I would definitely have conversations with them, if not face-to-face, video chat. And then I would ask questions for them about, obviously, both check the boxes and so you feel good there.

So then need to move on to like, what does your workflow process look like? You what’s my expectation for communication? And we kind of, teach our freelancers to be really clear about that upfront, because it’s important for you as a client to understand, you know, how are they going to get back to you? What’s their feedback look like? And a lot of times people’s complaints with freelancers are like, I send them something and like, I don’t know, I haven’t heard anything. And like two weeks go by, three weeks go by, they’re at the beach. Like, okay. And that’s, you can also take ownership over that and you can say, this is how I expect to get communicated to, which is absolutely wonderful.

But I would also look for them to say that to you, because then that shows that they have a level of professionalism and ownership that’s going to make you feel like you’re kind of taken care of and you know what’s happening. So I think it’s important on both sides. So I would move into the questions that are more related to like, what does the process look like to work together? And then I would, again, just communication, communication is super, super important. So I would interview both of them in that way. And then if it’s a huge project, if this is like, we’re going to be working together for a year.

There’s no reason why you can’t start by doing two small test projects and like, let’s try and see what like an email looks like. Let’s see what a blog looks like. Do that and see how that feels before you like, you know, it’s like have coffee before you get married. Like go out and try something small and then you’ll learn a lot from that process, you know, and you can still pay them like, Hey, you did an email. Hey, you did a blog for me. Thank you so much. And then you can kind of move on and make a decision from there. So I always feel like it’s nice if you can test the waters a little bit, if you, especially if you have a bigger project or a longer engagement.

Ricci Wolman (02:13.133)

Mm.

Ricci Wolman (02:39.787)

Yeah, I love that. Okay. So date before you get married, start small. I also think small things in the beginning are telling, so don’t brush those off. If you have a meeting and the freelancer is 10 minutes late, that’s usually not a great sign unless they have a really great reason for it. If it’s meant to be a video call and they can’t get on their camera, those things tend to be red flags when we’re hiring freelancers. The way that the relationship starts and the way the freelancer presents themselves.

Maari (02:48.89)

Mm-hmm.

Maari (02:52.677)

Yeah.

Ricci Wolman (03:08.909)

I’m does tell you a lot about how they’re going to work with you and then asking those pointed questions. think is really great advice. How do you communicate? When should I expect to hear from you? What’s the timeline on this? Um, and a little, a lot of cases, sometimes a freelancer won’t work out just cause the timing doesn’t work out. So you have to have a sense of what your timeframe is. You might say, Hey, I want this book cover design done in six weeks. And then one of the freelancers that you have on your shortlist.

Maari (03:25.999)

Yeah.

Ricci Wolman (03:34.603)

says, I’m actually going to be in Europe or I have a lot of other projects I can’t start until two months from now. And then they’re taken off your list. really knowing the specifics of what your timeline is beforehand and then asking those pointed questions during the interview process, I think is really great advice. So now we found our freelancer. We’re super excited. We’ve got the perfect person. Talk about contract. Like we’ve talked about scope.

Maari (03:42.405)

Mm-hmm.

Maari (03:55.086)

you

Maari (03:59.428)

Mm-hmm.

Ricci Wolman (04:01.575)

Should we be putting a contract together? Is it okay to just like email, hey, I’m gonna pay you this and they say, okay, fine. Like what does that look like?

Maari (04:09.789)

It depends on if you want to lay up stressed out at night. think that’s the nice thing is if you do a lot of the work in your initial proposal or your initial scope to them, then that can really convert to a contract. Honestly, they should be giving you a contract back too. It’s good to see both ways. I would expect when you give them a proposal or when you give them a scope, they should come back to you with a contract and you can see that and you can say, yes, this looks good. They should present it back to you as a proposal. Here’s the scope you’ve given me.

Here’s my proposal, here’s my version of your scope, which everything’s included and what you asked for. Here are my terms and conditions. So they could say, oh, I wanna be paid 50 % upfront, 50 % at the end. I want to deliver it in this way, whatever they wanna put together. And that’s for you to review and make sure that you understand it. And if you don’t, then ask questions or find somebody who can understand it. Feel comfortable with it, that includes.

payment terms that also includes what you’re getting as a deliverable that also includes ownership of work product that also includes obviously the estimate the cost and then make sure that you you you’re gonna sign copy they get a signed copy and you guys understand what that means like okay once this is signed yes I’m gonna pay you 50 % upfront or no I’m gonna pay you at milestone and then we’re gonna start right away and then I would if they don’t include a timeline in your in that contract or in the proposal back to you then I would

Definitely figure out a way to talk through what’s the timeline look like and put that in there in writing. And then once you sign it, then it should be off and running. you should send them a scope. They should send you back a contract that has all of the details outlined. And you should feel really good about it before you sign it.

Ricci Wolman (05:45.28)

Okay, great. So what if I get a contract and I’m like, okay, it has like 90 % of what I want in here, but like they didn’t put the thing about how I keep the art or the payment terms on exactly what I’m comfortable with. But now I found this person and I really love them and I want them to do my cover design and I’m scared to like go back and say something because what if they decide they won’t be my designer in?

Maari (05:54.693)

Mm-hmm.

Maari (05:59.054)

Yeah.

Maari (06:06.328)

Yeah.

Ricci Wolman (06:07.478)

Cause that’s the internal monologue we all have, right? We’re like, well, the contract’s really close, but I wish it said these things. What should I do?

Maari (06:10.083)

Right.

So close. Yeah. Well, I think when you get a contract, it’s always still a point of negotiation until it’s signed. So get them on the phone, say, hey, I got the contract. It looks great. I have a few questions about payment terms. I have a few questions about ownership of work. Can we talk through those and talk to them? And if they are like absolutely hard to work with in that phase, that’s a good sign that maybe they’re not a good fit for you. Another red flag, which you should never ignore. I think the part about

payment terms is usually pretty negotiable for people. So I would definitely push on that. And they might just say, Hey, like I usually do I usually do payment upon receipt, you know, and you can say, well, can you do net 15, net 30 and just talk through that. And again, this is like part of understanding what the communication is going to be like for them, because if they’re going to drag their heels on some of those things upfront and be difficult, then it might be harder when you get into like round two of revisions and they’re not wanting to follow up with you. So just make sure that feels good upfront.

And then the ownership of work piece, which is like, I think is very important for authors. I would make sure you have a really clear understanding that you’re getting that. And if you need to find out more information about that, I would continue to consult other people who could talk about licensing and what that would look like. And if you need to do that, because again, it comes down to where you want to spend your money and what you prioritize. If you want to own that artwork and you’re working with an artist who’s like, own the artwork and I can license it to you, then that’s a longer term conversation. And so I would just.

be cognizant of what that means if you get into licensing stuff.

Ricci Wolman (07:41.484)

Okay, great. So don’t, don’t fall too in love that you don’t, you know, push back and continue testing the relationship is what I’m hearing you say, which I think is great advice and push through the discomfort. You know, if something is like you read the contract and something’s kind of niggling at you, it’s better to pick up the phone and talk through that versus signing it because generally you’ll pay for it down the road and there’ll be a lot more discomfort in the future.

Maari (07:45.775)

Yeah.

Maari (08:04.569)

Yeah. Yes. Yeah. And problems if you sign something you’re not happy with, then you will kind of be annoyed throughout the process of review. And so then it’ll snowball into a larger thing that’s going to bug you. So I would just make sure that you feel really, really solid about it before you sign it on both sides.

Ricci Wolman (08:22.73)

And we’re talking a lot about expectations for the freelancer. are going to flip pretty soon and talk about how to be a good client because this is a relationship that goes both ways. We don’t just want to talk about what the freelancer has to do. because there are a of things as a client that you, need to do as well in order to make sure that this relationship goes well, that you get the deliverables that you want. So in this process up until where we are right now, is there anything that the client can do to.

Maari (08:29.306)

Mm-hmm.

Ricci Wolman (08:51.356)

increase odds of success, that they’re going to pick the right person, that they’re going to be a client that somebody wants to work with.

Maari (08:57.187)

Yeah, I think it’s great to think about that because I think a lot of times clients don’t think about it as like you serve me as opposed to like we’re working together and have much more success in a relationship with a freelancer or just in general. If you’re working together collaboratively, I would say when you’re starting a project to come with, if you have an idea of what you want to have created, sometimes people are very wary of saying like, I don’t want to tell the creative what to do. It’s like, no, no.

You should as much as you can because your goal is to get what you want. You are the client at the end of the day. if you’re going in there with if you’re going there for a design piece, let’s say it’s the cover, go in with examples of what you like. Like, I really like this and I really like this. And I would also say go on examples with things that you absolutely do not like. I hate this. I hate yellow and I hate this and I hate butterflies, whatever it is. Give them that information. And you can just say this is purely data for you to look and see like this is how I’m feeling about it.

100 % trust you and your ability, but I wanted to give you kind of where my brain was. And that is always absolutely appreciated because it gives creatives a jumping off point to start from, and it gets you closer to what you want because you’re probably not gonna go from hating yellow butterflies to all of a sudden getting presented a color, a cover with yellow butterflies and loving it. So like, let’s just cut that out altogether and focus on what we really want. So I would say definitely do that.

And then I would say like kind of what we shared too, like if you have some kind of communication plan or process or expectation, any kind of expectation that you have that you might be bringing to the relationship, the working relationship, definitely present that. So you can say, my expectation is that, you we’re not talking on the weekends. That’s totally fine. Or my expectation is that any communication goes through email. Like I have my phone on me if you need me, but I prefer you to send emails, like whatever your expectation is that is, you know, obviously realistic and will help the relationship be stronger.

know, share it upfront and be really direct with it. And I think that is helpful for a freelancer because they’re like, okay, like I know I can communicate via email. I don’t have to worry about receiving phone calls on a Saturday morning. And that’s really helpful too. So I think those two things are really important in the beginning.

Ricci Wolman (10:55.53)

Okay, great. So communicate your expectations, communicate your preferences and be opinionated, which actually is a little counterintuitive because sometimes you think, oh, I should just, you I don’t want to come off as too strongly opinionated on one side another, but actually the more opinionated you are, the easier it is for for the freelancer to understand what it is that you’re looking for. So whether it’s cover design or let’s just say someone’s doing a website for you, right? Giving them examples and saying, I hate these websites. Do not make my website look like this. I love these websites.

Maari (11:01.541)

They’re the expert. Yeah.

Maari (11:19.791)

Mm-hmm.

Ricci Wolman (11:24.743)

That’s super helpful because the first draft they’re going to get you is going to look much more like the thing you said you love and much less like the thing that you said you hate.

Maari (11:32.742)

Yeah, and if you’re if you feel uncomfortable saying that then you can ask you can be like hey I do have a little I have a Google Drive folder of Things that I really like and things I don’t like related to this project Do you want me to share it with you would that be helpful if you can always ask that? I mean most good designers and good copy editors are going to come to you with those questions up front just to kind of set the table But yeah, you can always ask and say like I love if you want me to I can share that stuff with you And maybe that’ll help you get started and that’s again if they come if they’re turned off to that

that’s another red flag, like, oh, they’re, you know, they want to work behind a, down in the basement and not talk to me. You want to have a partner in the, in working to make sure that they’re communicating. You want to have somebody who’s collaborative the whole way through.

Ricci Wolman (12:14.578)

Okay, so let’s say you gave your strong opinions, you sent the files to them and you said, this is what I like, this is what I don’t like. And now it’s the first deliverable. So the freelancer has sent you the first mockups for your website. And actually it doesn’t look anything like what you want it to look like. you’re kind of, disappointed, right? Cause you’re really excited and you open up the files and you’re like, okay. And you’re really not loving what you’re seeing.

Maari (12:19.172)

Mm-hmm.

Maari (12:34.436)

Mm-hmm.

Yeah.

Ricci Wolman (12:43.346)

How do you give feedback to the freelancer that you’re working with in a constructive way, in such a way that they understand that you’re really not happy with how things are looking and getting them to kind of move in the right direction?

Maari (12:43.545)

Mm-hmm.

Maari (12:51.64)

Yeah.

Maari (12:58.231)

Yeah. Well, I can one thing that would be good to even prior to getting to that is this is where when you’re starting with something starting with a new freelancer, I would say the first couple of rounds need to be very, very incremental. So if you’re doing a website, don’t wait until they have the website kind of fully marked up. Let’s start at a wireframe phase. Let’s review. Here’s what’s going to go on the home page. Here’s a rough copy. Here’s a rough look at this idea. Like we used to call it.

in advertising tissue sessions, but it’s basically paper, which we’re not using paper anymore. But the idea is that we’re looking at a rough idea. It’s outside of a brain, but it’s not quite in the real pretty decorative land yet. It’s in between. And it’s a lot easier to react and change things at that phase. That way, when we get to the first real design review, like, okay, maybe a few things have changed, but we all agreed on this stage. I would say

especially if you’re doing larger projects, websites is a good example. Before they get into mocking everything up, say like, let’s review and make sure that we feel cohesive about this kind of stair step phase. And hopefully then you don’t get to phase one and go, my gosh, this is nothing what I wanted. But if you do, then I would say just, you know, take it, take it step by step and kind of go through everything and say, here’s where I noticed some of the breakdown. You know, I was, we talked about this. I mean, hopefully you’ve already communicated early to where you’re like, okay, I said I did not want yellow butterflies.

the entire site is yellow butterflies. Like, let’s talk about where the communication breakdown is. Because clearly we didn’t hear the same things. But that’s also really important why it’s important to document all those different meetings and things like that because you have that all tracked. But then just be really clear and be like, hey, this is, know, here’s what we talked about. Here’s what I’m looking for. I see what you try to find something that are positive, like appreciate how you laid everything out. I really like the structure of the site. I just don’t like the designs. Let’s talk through these different pieces of it. But again, you kind of have to feel confident.

Ricci Wolman (14:19.644)

Right.

Maari (14:44.197)

And they’re like, you’re there purchasing their services. So they’re there to deliver your services. And the main thing is just make, you’re communicating clearly. You’re really, really getting clear feedback. I mean, some of the things that I’ve seen problems where it’s like, someone doesn’t speak all of their truth. They’re like, I kind of just keep working on it. that’s the thing. Someone’s like, it’s just not working. they’re like, go off.

work, you know, it’s good to get specific feedback and to give it really concisely. So don’t send, don’t send your website, don’t take your website and send it to like your mother-in-law, like your friend down the block, like somebody over at the basketball team. Like don’t, don’t poll for feedback. Maybe get a few trusted people to help you in a concise way to look at everything kind of pragmatically and then give one source of feedback. that would be another thing too, is I’ve seen it where it’s like, my, mom said this and then my cousin said this. And it’s like, it’s coming in from six different emails. Like,

It should all come through you and it should all kind of come through in one concise way for them to be able to react to and then get on the phone and just talk through it.

Ricci Wolman (15:41.167)

on it. So you’ve to give cohesive feedback, but give the feedback and push past the disappointment. I will say, I can’t tell you how many times I’ve spoken to people who have hired a designer for something and they didn’t like what the designer gave them. And they kind of maybe try to give some feedback or maybe didn’t. They basically like just shut down and gave up. And so they wrote it off and they were like, okay, I’m just going to let them finish. And then they paid the designer and then they got the deliverable and they just went and hired someone else to do it again.

Maari (15:46.82)

Yeah.

Maari (15:57.189)

Mm-hmm.

Yeah.

Mm.

Maari (16:10.861)

Ugh.

Ricci Wolman (16:11.169)

And that’s, you know, that’s not a, yes, this is an emotional, this could be an emotional process, especially when you’re dealing with things like you’re an author, you’ve written a book, you let’s just talk about cover design. You had this cover in your head and then the first draft that you get is so far off. It’s really hard. It’s really disappointing, but now that’s not the time to kind of shut down and give up. It’s the time to say, you know, this, this felt really disappointing. I feel like it doesn’t really reflect the characters in my book. doesn’t reflect the genre I’m trying to write into.

Maari (16:17.125)

Mm-hmm.

Maari (16:23.012)

Yeah.

Maari (16:27.704)

Yeah.

Ricci Wolman (16:38.721)

push through that because at end of the day it’s your time and your money that you’re going to waste. And so it’s really important to try and give the designer the feedback that they need in order to get the deliverable to where you want it to be.

Maari (16:40.185)

Mm-hmm.

Maari (16:56.333)

Yeah, and that’s another good reason to be involved early, especially incrementally along the way, because I have seen people who maybe aren’t used to working with creatives, they brief them and then they kind of like, okay, they don’t want to bother them. They feel like it’s, you know, it’s annoying for me to check in day four and be like, how’s it going? Do you need anything? Do you need any? Do you want to chat or anything? But a lot of what might happen is like, if you fall away, then they just kind of keep working against what they think is correct.

and you might be able to come in and say, actually, no, I don’t want it to be like that. I’d like it more like this. And you can stop them before they get too far. What’s frustrating for freelancers and for creatives is if they spend too long chasing the wrong thing, and then you come and you’re like, actually, no, that was the wrong thing. Like, I you would have told me that two weeks ago. So I know it feels weird sometimes to interrupt somebody in the creative process, but it is also like, it can help and serve them to get off of the wrong, not go the wrong way early on.

Ricci Wolman (17:52.208)

Yeah, so is there like a rule of thumb? Like how do you figure that out? How do you figure out and how do you communicate? Okay. We’ve, we’ve, we’ve signed the scope of work. You’re to go off. There’s a first deliverable deadline. you saying you wait for the first deliverable deadline or like before that you should tell the designer, Hey, I’d like to see some, what some of the things you’re iterating of on before we get to that deliverable or should you have like deliverable space really close together so that you’re seeing.

Maari (17:55.97)

Mm-hmm.

Maari (18:15.971)

Yeah.

Ricci Wolman (18:21.017)

the work really quickly, like how do you figure that out?

Maari (18:22.839)

Yeah. I would definitely when you sit down before the contract is signed, you have the kind of kickoff discussion meeting, ask them what their process for review is. And if they say, well, I’ll go away for two weeks and I’ll come back and I’ll show you the first pass at it. You can speak up and say, actually, I’d love to be involved a little bit more, like just making sure that you’re going in the right direction. Can we schedule a meeting week in the first week just to see like rough outlines, ideas? It can be a mood board, whatever it is. Just so I feel like

I don’t want to waste your time if you’re going down the wrong path. See what they say? Somebody who’s been doing this and probably is professional should have a process that’s pretty outlined. And if they don’t, then you can kind of name it. And you say, actually, after week one, let’s touch base. We’ll just see. can be sketches. It can be, again, like mood boards, whatever you’re thinking. Let’s just talk through it so we kind of feel cohesive on that idea. And then you can kind of go away and put the first design pass on it.

So I would kind of have that conversation in the very, very beginning. And that way you feel a lot more comfortable with like what to expect. I’m going to expect a weekend. We’re going to have a conversation. We’re going to nail that down and say, yes, go through, you know, we do this with logos. Here’s five different logos. They’re all kind of sketched up. Okay, do logo one and like logo four. And then they go off and they do that. So that process with a lot of the stuff you do is a good kind of iterative process. And then once you get through those first things and you feel solid and you kind of back away a little bit more, but I would definitely be involved.

heavily in that first from kickoff until the first design review or copy review.

Ricci Wolman (19:51.237)

Okay so yeah early and often and kind of bite size so and this this pertains to editing as well right don’t. a contract with someone and say okay go edit the entire book say hey once you’ve edited the first chapter can you send that back to me and make sure that you then are comfortable with their editing style and what they’re doing because otherwise. know the trains already left the station if they’ve completed the entire book.

Maari (19:55.086)

Yeah.

Maari (20:02.21)

Right.

Maari (20:07.737)

Yeah.

Maari (20:13.667)

Yeah, and make yourself available. think that’s like, some freelancers are going to feel, they’re going be like, nope, I got it, I’m solid. But you can say, hey, I’m here if you need, if you need anything, or if you have any questions, like just make yourself available to. Yeah.

Ricci Wolman (20:25.369)

What happens if you’ve had these conversations, you’re working really great together, you’ve done this initial review and they’re on the right track and then the day comes up for the first deliverable or the first milestone and they miss it.

Maari (20:38.081)

Mm-hmm. Yes, I have opinions. Yeah.

Ricci Wolman (20:39.525)

Right, either they say, I’m so sorry, I’m running behind, I’m not gonna get to this to you for a week, or it’s just crickets. You haven’t heard from your freelancer and you were like, hmm, something’s due this Friday, they haven’t set up a meeting with me or anything, it’s Wednesday, it’s Thursday, maybe now it’s Friday, what do I do?

Maari (20:45.666)

Right.

Maari (20:59.173)

Yeah, I mean, I have, we have big issues with freelancers who just disappear. You know, you don’t get, you get one excuse, you get one pass, like it’s raining outside. Okay, fine. But I think that’s a big, it’s a general, general problem. And it’s not just freelancers, obviously, but I think one thing is to

Ricci Wolman (21:10.607)

So it’s not just that, so this is a general, this can be a widespread program. Okay.

Maari (21:22.565)

Continue to communicate throughout the process. And then if we have a meeting coming up on Friday and it’s Monday and you haven’t got a meeting invite, send an email, hey, I know we have a review on Friday. I’m going to go ahead and send an invite. you want to send the invite, I’m going go ahead and send an invite tomorrow morning. Let them do it. If they don’t, send it on Tuesday. Make sure they’re accepting. If you don’t hear anything, then you follow up again. Like, I haven’t heard anything. I just want to confirm that we have Friday. If they don’t get back to you,

at all. They ghost you entirely. This is why it’s like people ask about 50 % upfront. I understand on both sides because it can happen to freelancers too, clients will disappear on them. I think you need to have an understanding of, you feel really comfortable getting into this, working with this freelancer? Are they new? Do they have good reviews? I feel like I can trust them based on feedback, based on other friends. Then sure, 50 % upfront or 25 or whatever you want to do. But I would make sure that you feel really solid about the communication and that they’re going to be there for you.

If they kind of drop off and I would keep following up with them and just freeze the project like I’m not gonna send any more, you know, I’m not gonna send the money or whatever and just follow up with them. They don’t keep, they disappear entirely, then you just cancel the contract and you move on to somebody else. If they call you, like I’ve had this happen before where it’s like the meeting is at 12 and at like 11.53, they’re like, okay, I’m not gonna make it. I’m running out of time. I need more time. That again to me is like missing a meeting.

they need to follow, they need to touch base with you 24 to 48 hours before the meeting to let you know or earlier ideally to let you know that they’re behind schedule. hopefully they’ll say that we’re behind schedule, apologize, I will be able to get to this next Monday or whatever. They’ll give you a time when you can expect to have a review. And then if they keep doing that, then it’s another problem. We just had a whole conversation yesterday about conflict and how to manage

conflict situations. Nobody likes conflict, but I think the main key is to also identify what is the truth in the situation. We signed a contract, part of the contract was communication, part of the contract was these deliverables, and to be on time. We’re now off timeline, you’re breaking contract. That’s a completely factual situation. Other than the fact that you’re mad, frustrated, all the emotions are tied into it, the factual part is like, hey, you were supposed to follow up with me on Tuesday, I haven’t heard from you, it’s Wednesday.

Maari (23:45.498)

this is a break of contract or this is also frustrating me because I want to stay on my timeline for my larger book project. So you can bring the emotional part of it, but definitely start with naming the facts of what is happening. And then say, hopefully I really want to remedy this. I really like the work that you do. Let’s talk, let’s get on the phone and kind of move forward.

Ricci Wolman (24:03.745)

Yeah. Yeah. At end of the day, this is really, it’s about navigating relationships and navigating expectations and navigating conflict. which is why I think it’s such a tricky area and so hard, for all of us, no matter what kind of contractor you’re hiring, there are these kind of emotional and psychological barriers that you have to push through to make the relationship what you want it to be.

Maari (24:09.497)

Mm-hmm.

Maari (24:15.417)

Yeah.

Maari (24:28.953)

Mm-hmm.

Ricci Wolman (24:33.698)

So let’s end by going back to the client side and just, there anything else, well, we talked about what clients can do to make it more successful. Is there anything that clients should absolutely not do or big red flags for freelancers when they’re dealing with a client that’s going to make them much less likely to want to work with you?

Maari (24:37.765)

Mm-hmm.

Maari (24:51.108)

Mm-hmm.

Maari (24:56.269)

Yes, I think for a client, for somebody who’s working with a freelancer, it’s, you know, do not micromanage because it’s not going to serve anyone. It’s really hard when you are, when you’re creating something that you’re emotionally tied into and it’s your money and it’s sometimes it’s your, your, your face on the book and everything. It’s hard not to lean over the shoulders of everybody who’s helping you. But that’s, there’s no way that you’ll grow that way. And know, you need to hire the right people and learn to identify the right people. And then

give them the parameters, give them your expectations, give them your timeline, and then back away. If your timeline is two weeks or whatever and they choose to work, not do anything until five days before, but then deliver it two weeks and just crush it and it’s amazing, you’re not involved in the process of how they get there. You’re only involved in telling them what you want at the end of it. So would really focus on trying not to micromanage. There’s a difference between micromanaging and just setting expectations and setting up guardrails.

Understanding that balance, think, takes a lot of time, but I think that’s really important. For freelancers working with clients, again, you need to run your business from beginning to end. So yes, you can do the design part, or you can do the copywriting part or the editing part, but you also are doing the front and the back, which means you’re doing the project management, which means you’re doing the relationship management, which means you’re doing the communication, and then you’re doing the delivery, you’re doing the invoicing. So understand that you need to run all components of the business well to be a freelancer that people want to work with.

The sooner you can understand both of the, all of that stuff, the more successful you’ll be and the more fun you’ll be to work with.

Ricci Wolman (26:30.145)

Wonderful. I think we’re going to end it there. Thank you so much, Maari, for sharing all of your wisdom and the top tips for how to work well with freelancers. And some of those, know, Reedsy and a couple of other platforms we mentioned, we’ll put in the show notes and anything else. if Maari have, do you have any like books or pods or resources that you would recommend authors listen to to get better at this, to get better at, you know, managing, let’s just say it’s managing.

Maari (26:33.069)

Okay, yeah.

Ricci Wolman (26:59.221)

professional relationships, right? But you’re not within a corporate environment as an author, you’re an entrepreneur. And so you are a lot of the time working in these kind of contractual ad hoc relationships. Is there any way authors could go maybe to get better at that or learn more about it?

Maari (27:01.018)

Mm-hmm.

Maari (27:14.969)

Yeah, they can definitely go to our website. So it’s we are uncompany.com. So it’s we are uncompany, all one.com. We have a lot of blogs and we are blogs are positioned both to the freelance side as well as like we consider the client side and we cover a lot of topics around working relationships. We also have lots of templates about how to build scopes, how to brief, how to deal with conflict, all that kind of stuff for our clients too. So they can definitely go there and review all that content.

Ricci Wolman (27:41.075)

Love that. Thank you so much. Well, wonderful. Thanks for coming on Maari. And authors, we will see you in a couple of weeks.

Maari (27:42.533)

Yes. Yeah, thank you.

Ricci Wolman (27:51.073)

Okay.

Maari (27:52.87)

Awesome.